This week Jeni Mc interviews Charles Fisher, a serial entrepreneur and the son of radio pioneer Avery Fisher. Specifically, they talk about the Fisher Wallace Stimulator® as a possible option to reduce pain and depression.
This episode is sponsored by DiPSy Doodle Productions Voice Talent Dave Holly
Fisher Wallace Stimulator®
[0:57] What’s that was nice to be tactical pain podcast i’m your host any mac and as always we are here to talk about are very real pain and real strategies for a better life.
Today we’re going to talk about.
[1:14] That’s cool that we may be able to use to improve our life weather is there pain relief or relieving other conditions that often come with chronic pain.
Specifically today we’re gonna talk about cranium electric there be.
What is that have to do with pain obviously the idea electric there be sounds like it might cause some pain our might bring images your mind from.
Classic movies of insane asylum is an electro shock therapy.
That’s not really what we’re talking about today although it is science born of the original work with electric shock therapy and how it treats depression.
[1:59] Currently you can buy over the counter which means you can you can purchase it without a true prescription are without.
Being seen by a doctor there are devices that are fda cleared that our neuro stimulation devices.
No it was chronic pain have the tens units the trans derm all electoral stimulation devices you put the gel pads on.
That’s your back or your shoulders you know you apply it directly she that little poles your muscles contracted helps relax and and release tension and pain.
Could you also be used for some people with nothing the when they use devices like that it is stimulates the nerves in such a way that it disguises the pain.
[2:52] Basically cranial stimulation works in the same way these devices are.
Here to be used on the head as most of you that i use a tens unit no.
They will expressly say do not put this on your head enough of this on your neck it’s not really designed for that.
[3:14] These devices are designed for us and they are fda approved to treat depression anxiety and insomnia.
Specifically today the device for gonna talk about we’re going to have shit fisher from fisher was laboratories he is the present official laws laboratories we’re gonna talk with him my phone about.
The fisher wallace stimulator and what it offers and some of the science behind it just a couple things.
Before we get into the car with chips.
Fisher wallace the website is fisher wallace dot com that’s f is he are we a ll a c fisher wallace dot com.
And there is you doing prescription from a medical doctor or an authorization from any health care practitioner.
So i could be your your doctor psychiatrist but it can also be a chiropractor on yours practitioner social worker.
They are their website lists even a dietician nutritionist.
You could have your medical doctor actually write a prescription but on their website they have a form that can be filled out.
And they do also have for an added fee of eighteen dollars they have a practitioner that will authorize that form for you.
[4:41] That’s that’s really the easiest thing to do if your purchasing it because most people in your shopping on line it’s it’s in the middle of night you’re not planning on.
Going in a senior back and doing anything about it you just.
Making this purchase for you for yourself so they do have a purchase authorization on my form and.
I did ask them what is the the purpose of the authorization form of this is over the counter products why do i need.
[5:14] To have some medical practitioner especially when is it gonna actually see me sign this form and that’s that apparently is that is required by the fda.
Fda approvals and things like that.
I’m sure that they need to document where and when that they’re they’re sending these items out.
So that is something that they as as an fda approved products are required to abide by.
[5:44] They’re device works alternating currents some people have.
Be more familiar with over the counter with direct train devices this is an alternating current devise.
They’ve had studies double blind studies placebo studies things like that.
Where there studies show that the fee alternating current is more effective.
When is stimulating the brain tissue and how that can help with depression anxiety and insomnia which obviously we’re living with chronic pain your probably also living with some amount of all three of those conditions.
[6:25] It stimulates the part of the brain that helps.
Stimulate serotonin transporters there tone and we all know that their tone and is the happy hormone that helps us feel better house does.
Often sleep better it is me it is the part of the brain that it’s.
[6:45] Helps with memory formation and helps with mood so those are things that again.
Regardless of what you diagnosis for chronic pain.
I think we all star to deal with brain fog i know our listeners that have fibromyalgia that is a core part of our tradition were often fighting find ways to stimulate our memory and.
And concentration things like that but if you live with chronic pain long enough you’ll be affected by that fog no matter who you are.
[7:25] Also the device works and promoting the brain patterns that trigger rem sleep rem sleep is.
The sleep where we we actually going to a deeper sleep and we dream a lot of people.
With chronic pain insomnia we like to call it pain insomnia.
Where were never dropping all the way down into that deep level sleep where we’re really getting rest and am really getting recharged so.
[7:54] Stimulating that without adding any drugs you’re reading and a lot of people are.
[8:02] Trying to avoid as much as they can to use anything that’s too sensitive session you trying to leave your life you don’t want anything that’s gonna give you that hangover feeling of being sedate longer than you want to be.
So to have the opportunity to try something that might stimulate a natural response.
[8:24] And brianna that deeper level of sleep its is very interesting to consider the device is designed to be used twice a day for twenty minutes.
[8:35] There’s probably some school of thought that if i use schedule myself to twenty min sessions where i sit alone and still and in the quiet and relax that alone will probably be good for me.
But adding the.
Average the device to maybe stimulate serotonin or some rest relaxation i can see the benefits of trying that.
There are people that have a vaccine.
You know discussion forms on line and things like that were they talk about using it more times a day.
[9:13] Apparently there’s a little you know very little risk of overuse in using one of these devices.
But using it more often or or a higher frequency higher setting you might not get the result that you intend to it might trigger alertness when you.
Are trying for your relaxation or things like that is not the kind of thing that you would develop a tolerance to.
The device is working and then national process of the brain.
It is just a stimulating device is not something that you could.
[9:52] Become immune to after while i do see where people talk about it stops working for them after a while i don’t know if so much of a case of.
Is it doing anything for them or maybe it’s done all that i can do maybe their bodies plateau study hard to quantify without more testing.
[10:17] It is approved for the treatment of anxiety.
And alot of people to do things it also do with through panic attacks which are.
They can they can stop your life in a heartbeat one of the questions that i did ask was.
What if your in a panic attack is this something that i can sit down put it on and it would stop the attack.
Or is this more of a preventive device where i need to be using it on a regular basis.
The device is more designed for slow and steady improvement is something that should be used over time and it really wouldn’t treat the acute onset of a panic attack.
Oh i people taking medication that is there emergency rescue medication for panic attacks this would not be considered an emergency rescue device this to be something that you would want to plan to use and use regularly.
[11:18] So it’s definitely something i think.
Is very interesting to me is something i’ve tried in used tens unit before i have used electric stimulation approach somebody.
I myself experience.
Unfortunately courses are chevrolets can i use one of these devices so i have to determine that the pain that i’m using it tree whether it’s to lose the trigger pointer shoulder pain or whatever.
I know that in the next day to three days i will probably have a lease flare.
That’s just how my body responds to it it does help relieve the pain and the tension but i’m going to have a.
[12:03] That’s just me it can be different for other people but i have.
Been afraid to try something like this because i think that the idea of.
[12:16] Putting it on my head and trying it is going to cause this and.
So those are some questions i’m gonna be asking chip again we’re gonna be talking to check fisher he is the president of fisher wallace laboratories and we’re gonna discuss the fisher wallace stimulator.
And let’s get shipped on the line.
We’ve rectangle give tactical once again you jenny back.
I am in your area good using.
Very well thank you for having me on the show so i’m done a little bit of an angel is talking about your device and talking about.
The things that its what what the difference between fda approval and fda cleared isn’t some some of the things that sure that your website forums people love but i kinda wanted to talk with you directly.
[13:18] About to tell us toes for so little bit about yourself introduce yourself.
Well done on my iphone.
Oh man and has baba trading company i don’t couple of businesses and but most my work has been in consumer products i found i discovered it.
Technology is a really back into french and the owner of the with the device and his brother,
did god be one of the just passed away and always and there were two brothers who both electrical engineers who invented devices and still very successfully charmingly he’s been told to serve me.
To run two thousand five.
As the state wanted to help between you required them and it really going to buy a burger,
find a partner mr washing but fortunately also he is deceased and,
show because i tried but it but my partner burgers around and.
Also a big his background in marketing guy has resigned as but we have medical advisory board.
So we’re where we’re not sure governmental side so that’s listed on website and i would bet he’s on your website it lists who who some of the medical advisors are in a little bit about each of them.
[14:52] Right yes these are all pretty prominent psychiatrist for people who are intentionally field and ordered notable in their experience and,
and knowledge of the subject so because we have changed technologies we provide the you know we don’t really requires or the hospital where all that we do have a lot of technical expertise.
make sure device where which is as a whole team of engineers were very you know very well covered terms what we do and how we maintain and improve the quality of what we what we provide,
and i guess i didn’t realize until you mentioned it just now that did this exact technology has been around since the eighties so this is not.
This isn’t some fly-by-night internet bubble dot com device this is this is on its been around for a minute.
[15:49] Right i mean is that originally the device and transfer the electronic version nation which is something that works properly and the body most devices,
are there for like stem no way in something that,
you know what people get when they have certain after they have surgery you were having orders new orders of your body,
the most devices are about fifty two hundred fifty million which is way too strong berger has to where they did was a real event and,
a database tens device that works on me and one to four million six busybody it was really for the geriatric market geriatric patients don’t like the,
you know the strongest innovation of the standard was successful that they then started to experiment with frequency that could be used to try to stimulate neurotransmitters all.
So basically used to hear basically we’re looking for something that was.
Powerful enough but basically just powerful enough to do what was needed to stimulate the brain without.
Having to be in a clinical setting with it with the doctor standing by in.
That’s correct me if you can hear this because many people due to lack of convulsive therapy is approximately eight hundred two thousand no apps.
He utilized parses one to four so this is such a min about electricity every question is what can possibly work as its own and they.
[17:27] Delete batteries in the answer to that is cuz quick question is do we use the very high carrier frequency of about fifteen thousand words with allows us to get electricity into the brain.
Use radio signal without a lot of apple juice so it’s not a matter how strong it is really just a matter how you deliver.
And that we we also have,
what am i actually frequency which is about five hundred hers which helps but not logical aspect of this so you know it’s only four million in two minutes because we’re actually cutting the physiological effect,
and then the body was between about zero and forty hurts if you for example.
But fortunately are there other ways to save a device well using frequencies that part of your body do workers.
Different aspects of your physiology be stimulated using a mild formula kirby were working be used when the person there’s which is using a which is running frequencies.
Between zero forty range that is the your biological biologically active frequency and we have to find the right one that would stimulate heater transmitters we knew the rain was in.
Its around the knee hurts if there’s a number we have you carefully guarded this for the.
Is it different for each patients with some people are lesser.
[19:01] Or does it actually we found a frequency that would stimulate,
generally the year transmitters in most patients do we have about seventy five to eighty percent success rate doesn’t work on everybody we meet we return basis with one but before prices of we only get about,
fifteen percent of the back so it eighty five.
The types of activities around were conservative get it working seventy eighty percent of patients and when i say words i mean that it will alleviate one three symptoms that were there to treat.
Have you seen any patterns and the people that it does work for weather nat’s you know some some things were better for men or for women or,
four different age groups that the patient and see success in the fall and any patterns or categories.
Not really no we have a very wide range occasions we have a lot of each christians who prescribe is for kids we actually use cage without,
she will that is two years of age were not permitted to work and actually a pediatric patients with you.
You know contrition to rca prescribed and they do will pharmaceutical drugs training is not a good idea that,
world history and the we also used,
very successfully with my shoulder patients people in their nineties because they actually can’t adjust runs very well and.
[20:37] And they usually take a lot of them this is so many.
Any issues which would otherwise have to be sold with poly pharmacy so we have a wide range and there’s and our genders but it is really.
Kind of almost fifty formula varies by the month but we find the winner more receptive to.
The kind message that we’re sending but he was not to prevent them from.
Ordering so he was pretty much the did he do we don’t have a specific population i would say that the.
The appeals in terms of the purchase of the device until mark the mark and the greatest ball crosses pretty much patience between thirty five and seventy.
The sum of all the more mature you know who is making a decision ball about his was recognizing symptoms as they not approach middle age better for being,
you much younger and then the asians really to their seventies and then people over seventy me.
Can’t get medicaid were for medicare and not be you know and.
Turn the blue church every therapies not not that we don’t have many patients were much older and we treated.
Question hundred years of age but i was a partially is over between you know the reading the bible for us thirty five seventy between the two genders see.
[22:14] It’s pretty common for women to experience.
[22:21] How eight ball that desire and need to look for things out of the norm when and sometimes we know biologically have.
More issues metabolizing certain medications.
Even as simple as we can bring our castle better than a tablet things like that there seems to be more things that women experience is far side effects.
And where is where is men might be more held off by the stigma of admitting they’re dealing with depression women are.
Often seeking something other than taking a medication and that something you’d you’d said to me when we spoke on the phone previously was that.
[23:06] You will feel.
[23:10] And no cup confident that your offering the public and non fire option so.
That know this probably will not necessarily replace all the patients medications this would you consider this something that people use in addition to.
Or is it a,
it has a hard treatment in some cases and where we haven’t really been able to prove how but there are a lot of witnesses were quite a few vacations and again i,
where you were not i know he’s had heart disease and taking drugs are you.
We feel that the across the board if you can use a non pharmaceutical intervention cars.
And there are others on the market got this early in the second round but i am your father no what will message in the device shield which much smaller before leaving on something that is measurable and on same problem.
Can you probably used first and it doesn’t work then you can go to her suitable option there are many great drugs in the market.
But when you have something that has done amazing is this that has to research it is probably a good idea to start with something like this for stator better opinion we don’t.
[24:41] Will you use this device without contraindications with any other pharmaceutical drug sofas and has something that you’re doing,
where’s the problem and you can reduce vacation,
that’s fine he can you so stay on the medicaid for for her machine that may come and actually,
the treatment of something else that’s going on and i cannot be very specific but yeah pieces of vacation every condition,
is different but that’s one of the things that we talked about a lot of resources is that in hand sitting quality of life.
[25:23] So so we do we tell me today’s the new especially when you’re with your buying a house full price is coming up this past thirty days you said that i don’t,
when he but they can return it we have a ten percent restocking fee wishes you know,
lower the industry standard would you return electronic equipment generally you charge between fifteen and twenty five percent of the purchase price restocking fee or as much flour we had to cover the cost we should be back to the plan to get a refurbished,
and you know rebuilt in the parts are changing everything else and,
how many years of being used objects somewhere so we have to do that just fell safe but the,
this device difference from.
The you know you’re talking about electronics and the rest people taking what they purchase and and user and on a,
how is this different from there so many devices that you can just walk in your neighborhood drug store now the icy hot has wanna leave has one,
Danger close to ten devices but they don’t have a very big and they don’t have to be in a.
Alone or just build the same message is most ten devices and its my body not using any there any specific frequencies or anything between the study that any different than anybody else’s.
So there is really not something work benjamin down i have not heard good reviews about.
[27:00] You have a lot of products that are in drugstores estate and the products mean they’re on the same rate this is not something that you use on your face your head and neck there.
[27:14] And anyway suggested to be safe for that and so that’s the difference with your devices that use you do have the science backing exactly.
Where is applied to the frequency to trigger the serotonin in the brain.
Product no worries we found that the previous also ours is the is a true tragedy of it so you.
Me to use the applicator switch the only way you can really get interesting right there other devices market to use matches on your clothes about they don’t,
they are not delivering electricity in the same fashion.
This is really the only way you can collection break and you are going to it safely if you understand the frequencies introducing or or active players so,
no one seems to have understood that right mission hi carrier frequency of eighty thousand,
and what will i do to to deliver that,
discover devices better better up that’s about turned in in drugstores are okay but they’re not you can use and transfer,
and by using both you can use this for bailey and you can also use it topically so you know a lot of pain is centered where’s trigger the brain.
And the boys reaction is where you were reaction and of course all the build up is result of the stress of having injury.
Is his biologically.
Connected to your brain and how it operates of up so the first line of defense and actually we’re treatment and using this transparently but you also use this properly.
[28:54] And we talked about the body her to my goal was five hundred so where were you to lazy and forget about things like that.
Right will find you see you can use probably but you can also i would also recommend using it turns green because that’s where a lot of his trigger,
we would use it topically for example of some of which is where most despite your current on the food or barter for toronto and we’ve got medicine,
got a lot of in order to have your heart pumping to the strawberries and proven that to break up sugar crystals words as is working properly on your foot and then there are nine million people this country couches used to.
And largely and solve one of your cast and it is you know people think it was drinking port red wine the greatest number of characters are actually beer drinkers.
[29:50] Yeah i know for a red wine drinker so i can i guess and say from that appears here’s a real problem and also people.
Very rich food these days so so glad she’s cause gout and then we can also use that you can also use it anyway we have people.
For help in surgery right hip pain.
She put one up here in one side with pain in the oven does hundred eighty degrees the other side we give you by strapping kids activities in your body and all because he is for r and neck pain and lastly.
What have you as,
to for very specialized form of chronic pain which is called phantom limb syndrome internet p you can use one of these alligators with makes i changed the device.
She has her,
office but the we can be used on c chalets in the other out the hair you use on the subway,
where the or and it will reduce which and which were you feel like your problem is still there you so snorting pain.
Practically so what’s the use of medical life span of the device last,
yo for five years or more if we don’t get anything back maybe about one percent failure rate so we,
get two to five years down the road we don’t cost so we replaced the cost so they’re not and we will cover costs but not.
[31:26] I want to buy for brush up so we can get to the number of back every year but not many and that’s as long as a result of used.
[31:37] Yeah doesn’t look it come in looking like they been using our over and over come back later over here over my hr something.
I know i have said this.
I know in your website it says that one of the things that would make you a patient not eligible to use it would be if you had a pacemaker or other electronic device in the body already.
We recommend using over the in over pacemaker we have a lot of patients who used to transfer a newly who pacemakers but we we put that is a contradiction because of a lot of.
What we recommended by the medical advisory board about it so you don’t you voyage can,
raise is there any other known health conditions other than another electronic device in the body is there is there anything else that,
the you guys come across as a as contraindications.
The only thing is if you have if you have for some reason trap on your head on if you were into had a bullet.
I wish in trouble from from you were situation and that is and if the if you use the death of his over them so you can having so that pretty much do i owe.
Where’s this is we.
As just as we can i go to raffia first vibration appreciate you calling in and kinda talking about the science of it and in the history of the device the again i myself wasn’t aware that we’re looking at.
[33:19] Thirty plus years of.
Science and technology backing that rice with what do you think it is there’s one take away that is if someone was on the fence about trying this device i mean i’ve been pretty open with you that my fear was that it would somehow cause me pain.
And and that make me nervous about trying a device like this but if somebody were on the fence.
What do you think it advice would you offer them in their decision making process.
Sure but when i went to examine oh not engages in inches device to worsened with matters of electricity here,
do to cause harm in any situation and how he was applied,
so that’s that’s the first thing the fda has loaded this year for forty years and determined say it were not saved.
Then we would be out of work and we would certainly wouldn’t have their printer were also fully approved using over the counter device which i didn’t mention in brazil canada mexico and europe those are all very very strange in,
regulatory bodies and they don’t.
What you do anything unless you have permanent that you have a device that say they be affected so we do have that in printer outside of the united states which is even,
more rigorous than or ca so i would ask people to look at the evidence that we have as well as as well as the research of between published bipolar depression which is,
car in two thousand thirteen was the first time the device has never been shown to treat the to the.
[34:55] It appears that which is really quite a landmark study do we have done some extraordinary work and we also have,
your detailed talk this website which i did which really on the street after so i would ask people to be opened to to understanding the biological elements of what’s going on here and wanted to,
look at you know the fact we had a great safety record this is the mobile is receiving shares this is just when it was delivered which makes factor.
Excellent when i appreciate you calling in and giving us your time and i definitely know the following up with you i think i think that i am and getting braver and i think that i’m getting willing to.
Maybe dip my toes in the.
And it might be funny to say dip my toes in the water with anything electric bikes but definitely looking forward to learning more about it and getting some more feedback on and i appreciate you calling interesting.
Perfect thank you for having the shown happy to answer any of a question mark in the future you have a good night to you as well.
[36:19] Well that was an excellent wealth of information.
We appreciate the phone call from it shipped to the fisher wallace lavatories again and their website is fisher wallace dot com and you can visit their site to learn more about their.
Device a couple things just.
[36:44] From there was a couple little bit more information than myself cost six hundred ninety nine dollars says flying investment as shit mentioned you may return it for a refund within thirty days and it.
You know is definitely something that i think if you use it just once or just twice you should not base your experience on,
just wanted to uses it something that you should try over multiple experiences unless of course that causes you.
Such discovered that you would want to put it back on even though this is something that you can just purchase over the counter.
If you’re working with pain management team are working with the with the position.
I think you should talk to your doctor about it and ask them their thoughts on it are they wear bits with the recommended ss do they have any.
Thoughts as to whether or not it would have positive impact for you is certainly one of those things where again.
I’m always looking for things that i can and it’s my life that will.
Help my existing drug therapies help with my life management plan.
I would definitely have to consider could i find twenty minutes twice a day to put a machine on and.
You know it’s relieve my pain and increase mobility and help me sleep and help my depression and anxiety i would find twenty minutes twice a day and absolutely.
[38:18] Is this something that i would invest seventy dollars and that her to measure.
It is covered by some insurance is yes but a lot of interferences don’t and some flicks plans won’t because technically it’s in order to counter item.
So we definitely have to we the benefits of the device versus the cost and is nice that they are for the refunds that they do have a minimum restocking fee as well so he wouldn’t get all of your money back.
So we definitely something that if you are gonna spend the money on you need to be committed to putting the effort into it i myself was going to spend that much money i would like to know that it has a longer lifespan perhaps for the device itself.
But again if you care for something and take care of it in and use it properly that i’m sure increases lifespan exponentially.
[39:19] So definitely i am very excited to be doing a little more research and learning a little more about using cranial stimulation for pain and depression anxiety and insomnia all things we do with.
I have a training myself.
But it is something and we research more on and i would love to hear from some of you if you try one of these devices if you had.
Positive or negative effects from it if you had any unexpected benefits from it you know didn’t help with with other parts of your pain management and life management.
[40:01] As always we talked about coaching and and putting together a plan of of.
When taking observing deciding and taking action this is definitely something that would be taking action.
So if you have tried me the fisher wallace stimulator or any other type of training estimate are we’d love to hear from you.
Email us you can email me at jennie mac it pains me to five dot com or are generally email info at pain sixty five dot com.
Tell it tells your story tell it how how did it help and what.
[40:49] And if you’d like we could also talk more about your experience in your diagnosis.
[40:59] I’d love to have some people share with us what brought them to discovering this and in and putting their energy into trying it.
[41:09] As always our comcast line is open you can call and leave a voicemail we’d love to hear from you and have a message and.
Many of share your story that way our number is six zero five nine three seven eight five three six that is our pain six five.
[41:34] Six zero five nine three seven eight five three six is the podcast line so feel free to call me this voice mail tell us tell us your story.
And if i do get brave enough to try either the fish are always device or or some other simulator on my brain i will get back to you with the results and share my story as well.
[41:56] As always thank you for listening to the tactical pain podcast again things to jim fisher fisher oz laboratories for helping us out with today’s episode.
And remember awareness is free and has risen nice places to go.